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lugo is unable to remember his password.
Such an Aries


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then why make the statement?

"This issue is complex."
"It sure is! Let me tell you about how it isn't."
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mchicken is dejected.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue of whether a person is male or female is typically not very complex for a large percentage of the world's population. This case is not typical, hence it is an edge-case, hence it may be complex.

Maybe you should read what he said again because it's in no way what you just said.
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lugo is unable to remember his password.
Such an Aries


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mchicken wrote:
The issue of whether a person is male or female is typically not very complex for a large percentage of the world's population. This case is not typical, hence it is an edge-case, hence it may be complex.

Maybe you should read what he said again because it's in no way what you just said.


Seriously?

I'm not going to argue over what his intent was, it's his call if he wants to disagree. If what he said was to agree with the inherent complexity of gender issues than I admit to complete confusion.
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awerbos
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom was correct when he inferred my position.
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lugo is unable to remember his password.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Touche.

I admit to confusion.
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awerbos
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just read what Tom said; gender is almost always simple.
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jaster is back in black
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The verification requires a physical medical evaluation, and includes reports from a gynecologist, endocrinologist, psychologist, an internal medicine specialist and an expert on gender.


Look, it's complicated.
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awerbos
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The existence of a complicated case does not mean that all cases are complicated .
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mchicken is dejected.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_Walsh
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epb
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the thing... I don't understand why the articles are acting like the questions of sex and gender are relevant here.

Let's assume she was born inter-sexed. If this is so, then in terms of sex, she is, by definition, neither biologically male nor biologically female. Gender, on the other hand, *is* relatively easy to answer. She identifies as a woman, but she is a bit masculine. Done and done. No team of experts is going to change either of these things.

So in this case, it seems that sex is irrelevant by definition, and gender is apparently irrelevant because they're busy calling in teams of experts instead of saying 'oh, she identifies as a woman.' Thus, it seems to me that the only relevant question is whether she "meet[s] the requirements to compete as a woman."

I can only assume that these requirements are things like 'has a vagina', 'doesn't have a Y chromosome,' 'likes pink and baking pies', whatever, and can be easily answered, even though the answer to "is she a biological male or female" is "no."

I am curious about what these "requirements" are, and if they even exist yet. Yes, it would make sense to call in teams of experts to determine these requirements. But no team of experts is going to be able to tell us if she is truly a female or truly a woman.

This would all make much more sense if the "requirements" didn't exist yet, and if the experts are in fact being asked to come up with them. That would explain why the articles and quotes are talking about lots of time and effort and investigation and reports.

Also, from a feminist perspective, I'd imagine that there could be some uproar if what motivated the rumors and questioning is the fact that she's muscular and fast. I have no idea if this is the case.
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awerbos
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly what I was hoping for.

epb wrote:
Here's the thing... I don't understand why the articles are acting like the questions of sex and gender are relevant here.


Because biological sex involves a variety of hormones that affect physical performance. If biological women and men did not compete in different categories, women would not win anything. Since women would like to place first in things, the separation was necessary. There is no other reason for this kind of "discrimination". You can bet they don't test athletes competing as men for gender.

The concern about all of this is because those women want to compete "fairly". Generally, that means those with people who haven't had the physical benefits of male hormone levels for years. In general, this determination (biological sex) is very easy to make. You are correct in that there probably need to be firm lines clearly set out in these cases as to what actually constitutes a biological woman, since we're dealing with extreme edges here, where any kind of classification breaks down.

Everything else you said is fallacious, following from that fundamental misunderstanding.

epb wrote:
Also, from a feminist perspective, I'd imagine that there could be some uproar if what motivated the rumors and questioning is the fact that she's muscular and fast. I have no idea if this is the case.


Only because (modern) feminist uproar is illogic at its peak. This concern is raised by other female athletes (or their supporters) who believe they were unfairly defeated.
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epb
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woah there. Apparently I was unclear. Here's what I was saying:

I don't understand why "sex" or "gender" are relevant here, because, if we assume she was born inter-sexed, then:

(A) She is, by definition, neither biologically male nor biologically female, thus the question "what is her sex?" is moot.
(B) She can and has answered the gender question already, and her gender identity (woman) is evidently (and perhaps justifiably) not important to the committee.

Thus, all that is important is this third thing: not sex, not gender, but "the set of requirements to compete as a woman." And I'm saying that whether she meets those should be simple to answer, and not especially profound. (Although what they should be is not simple to answer.)

I wasn't talking about men and women competing separately. But as far as that goes, yeah, I know why it's done. It seems somewhat similar to weight classes in wrestling, actually. I wonder if there's a way to do that in other sports.... Sorting runners by how fast they are doesn't *quite* make sense though.
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kallie is +2
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just have a third category of competition for biologically indefinite individuals. BIIs, if you will.
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mchicken is dejected.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

epb wrote:
It seems somewhat similar to weight classes in wrestling, actually. I wonder if there's a way to do that in other sports.... Sorting runners by how fast they are doesn't *quite* make sense though.


There's really no reason to do that for running. I don't think there's anyone that cares who is the fastest per height/weight/whatever combination of criteria you want. Whereas for wrestling/boxing/weightlifting your ability to compete is very much proportional to your weight. And you can display technical skill in any weight bracket, whereas for running...you really just want to be as fast as possible.


Last edited by mchicken on Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mchicken is dejected.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kallie wrote:
Just have a third category of competition for biologically indefinite individuals. BIIs, if you will.


Then the less man-like ones would be upset that they have to compete with the more man-like ones and we'd be back to this all over again.
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