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awerbos
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Joined: 29 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lugo wrote:
I can't take this religion seriously most of the time, despite being a member of it. I still made jokes about Jesus when I was a christian.


So, that strikes rather at the core of something that's been bothering me: Do you really believe in any of it? I mean, do you believe in supernatural entities and benefits beyond deep effects of positive thinking?

lugo wrote:
I mean, if we're being level with each other there's obviously a line between making fun of something and just being a dick, but that's a pretty obvious line I don't think anyone can accidentally cross.


Actually, it was a persistent and un-discussed miscommunication in that regard that caused me to leave this place.
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kallie is +2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lugo wrote:
]I mean, if we're being level with each other there's obviously a line between making fun of something and just being a dick, but that's a pretty obvious line I don't think anyone can accidentally cross.


Yeah... have you ever met any member of DOOMCom?
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lizakova is shinying up her life.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kallie wrote:
lugo wrote:
I mean, if we're being level with each other there's obviously a line between making fun of something and just being a dick, but that's a pretty obvious line I don't think anyone can accidentally cross.


Yeah... have you ever met any member of DOOMCom?


I've gotta agree with this one. DOOMCom excels at saying dickish things as a joke, but not really a joke, but still a joke, but not.

"Now that Vernon is gone and I can no longer see the color of his skin..."
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jaster is back in black
Mod Emperor of Dune


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate black people.

Fuck Obama.
_________________
When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles.
-Children of Dune, attributed to Louis Veuillot
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lizakova is shinying up her life.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaster wrote:
I hate black people.

Fuck Obama.


Yeah, but you're black so you're allowed to hate him.
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/01/19/8-barack-obama/
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mchicken is dejected.
Cover of Rush's Seminal Album


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Friends is really just not good. Why aren't you buying it...60% off:

http://www.amazon.com/Friends-Complete-Collection-Jennifer-Aniston/dp/B000H6SXMY/

Probably because they can't sell it otherwise.
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lugo is unable to remember his password.
Such an Aries


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awerbos wrote:
lugo wrote:
I can't take this religion seriously most of the time, despite being a member of it. I still made jokes about Jesus when I was a christian.


So, that strikes rather at the core of something that's been bothering me: Do you really believe in any of it? I mean, do you believe in supernatural entities and benefits beyond deep effects of positive thinking?


I do and don't believe in it in the sense that you are referring to. I don't really think that there are hundreds of gods running around who are pretty much the same as the Christian god except pettier. I do think there are thought-forms which are manifestations of a certain kind of spiritual 'energy'. (Energy is, of course, pretty much a misnomer here and really not the best word to use when talking to people who know anything about science) I do believe that, say, casting a spell is different from tricking yourself into thinking something good will happen. Magickal thought doesn't really mesh well with Scientific thought. If I cast a sell and what I wanted to happen happens, then the spell has worked. End of story. Correlation does imply causation when magick is involved if you are adopting a frame of mind that allows for it to work.

That said, I find most Wiccans comical. Eclectic Wicca is a religion that absolutely requires individual judgement to piece together something that makes sense. There are plenty of Wiccans who think that you can set up a bird bath and cover it with glitter and have magic fairies come to your garden and dance with you because they are pretty and like glitter. Our religion lacks a main text since it was created almost entirely as a lie sixty years ago by a weird old guy from the Golden Dawn with a bondage fetish--seriously--so a key part of finding our individual faith involves examining and ruling out others' ideas. Which essentially means I can think 80% of the religion as whole is ridiculous while still being a dedicated practitioner.
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kallie is +2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Religion is only good if it lets you live forever. What say you?
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awerbos
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Joined: 29 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lugo wrote:
I do believe that, say, casting a spell is different from tricking yourself into thinking something good will happen.
lugo wrote:
Correlation does imply causation when magick is involved if you are adopting a frame of mind that allows for it to work.


(emphasis mine)

It seems that the second thing really makes the first one sound a little bit hollow. I mean, I don't want to delve into something that makes you uncomfortable, but I think that speaks to some unrecognized knowledge that these things really are just a result of positive thinking. Note that you can't just "think positive" and get good results; that can include a level of thought-modification that can only be indirectly controlled by the conscious mind (by intermediaries such as religion).

Secondarily, if you boil science down to logic plus induction, which of those two things doesn't work?

lugo wrote:
Which essentially means I can think 80% of the religion as whole is ridiculous while still being a dedicated practitioner.


Is it then meaningful to say that you're of the same religion? Why do you seek membership in this broader group if you disagree with and ridicule so many of their beliefs?
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mchicken is dejected.
Cover of Rush's Seminal Album


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kallie wrote:
Religion is only good if it lets you live forever. What say you?


I say that's a pathetic attitude.
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kallie is +2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mchicken wrote:
kallie wrote:
Religion is only good if it lets you live forever. What say you?


I say that's a pathetic attitude.


I say religion is pathetic.

Also, the big draw for every religion is that it connects you to something bigger, deeper, more important, more clarifying and/or literally life-extending. All this gives people the sense that their individual life is inherently meaningful for no good reason.

Death is everyone's biggest fear, and if people can convince themselves that their lives and the lives of their loved ones are meaningful or will continue forever, they can overcome this fear and continue their lives.


Last edited by kallie on Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mchicken is dejected.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kallie wrote:
mchicken wrote:
kallie wrote:
Religion is only good if it lets you live forever. What say you?


I say that's a pathetic attitude.


I say religion is pathetic.


The statement is short-sighted and childish. First, there are certainly things you would take short of living forever in exchange for religion. I'm not sure whether you mean actually believing in a religion or paying it lip-service, but either way, there are such things.

Second, while most visible examples of religion are pathetic, that doesn't mean that religion as a concept is pathetic. It can be an effective tool for manipulation, it could be real and therefore correct, it can be a fun and profitable thing to do with your friends. There are any number of reasons to participate.

Third, when America is falling apart you'll be glad that we all have my brother's cult to fall back on. They'd probably even support a DOOMCommune. And you have seven kids and that's pretty much how you get to live forever. Is that contrary to your beliefs?
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kallie is +2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mchicken wrote:
kallie wrote:
mchicken wrote:
kallie wrote:
Religion is only good if it lets you live forever. What say you?


I say that's a pathetic attitude.


I say religion is pathetic.


The statement is short-sighted and childish. First, there are certainly things you would take short of living forever in exchange for religion. I'm not sure whether you mean actually believing in a religion or paying it lip-service, but either way, there are such things.

Second, while most visible examples of religion are pathetic, that doesn't mean that religion as a concept is pathetic. It can be an effective tool for manipulation, it could be real and therefore correct, it can be a fun and profitable thing to do with your friends. There are any number of reasons to participate.

Third, when America is falling apart you'll be glad that we all have my brother's cult to fall back on. They'd probably even support a DOOMCommune. And you have seven kids and that's pretty much how you get to live forever. Is that contrary to your beliefs?


You can't keep pointing at your brother's cult every time you want to defend religion as something wonderful and happy for all of humanity. The most successful religions are those that give you the least sacrifice for the biggest payoff. Nevertheless, you still have to subscribe to a worldview riddled with vagueness and lies. People can live happily and not have to sacrifice their intellect.
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awerbos
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Joined: 29 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mchicken wrote:
The statement is short-sighted and childish. First, there are certainly things you would take short of living forever in exchange for religion. I'm not sure whether you mean actually believing in a religion or paying it lip-service, but either way, there are such things.


Yeah, but eternal life is one of those few things that only religion can offer you.

mchicken wrote:
Second, while most visible examples of religion are pathetic, that doesn't mean that religion as a concept is pathetic. It can be an effective tool for manipulation, it could be real and therefore correct, it can be a fun and profitable thing to do with your friends. There are any number of reasons to participate.


I think it's disingenuous to compare someone believing in religion and someone using religion to manipulate others.

Religion could almost never be considered real. However, since the terms people use to discuss religion are themselves so poorly defined, that's hardly a subject that's pleasant to discuss.

You'll need to explain that third one. At least, why religion would be something good to do in that situation (as opposed to something more mundane like DOOMCom solidarity).

mchicken wrote:
Third, when America is falling apart you'll be glad that we all have my brother's cult to fall back on. They'd probably even support a DOOMCommune. And you have seven kids and that's pretty much how you get to live forever. Is that contrary to your beliefs?


And when it doesn't, you'll be glad that secular humanism charted a stable philosophical course made possible by relentless inquisition of the human mind and its interactions with superstition.
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jaster is back in black
Mod Emperor of Dune


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 2700

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that, as a conceptual motivational scheme for a populace, secularism is overrated (not bad, but overrated).

I also that that people need to disambiguate the concepts of religion and of a church. Religion is something of a practice or methodology bent towards (in one sense or another) things unexplained or unexplainable. A church (that is to say a religious organization... not the building) is a social organization like any other (in most respects).

I'm not saying that this is the case across the board, but I think there are some crossed wires regarding the distinction.

++Edit: also, just be sure to keep it civil guys. Discussion is good, attacks are bad. We've seen it happen on the forums before.++
_________________
When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles.
-Children of Dune, attributed to Louis Veuillot


Last edited by jaster on Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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